Quick Update and a point by point rebuttal.

I’m currently working on research for a few more posts.  The subjects will be

– outlines all of the immoral commandments of the Abrahamic god, as described in the Torah, Bible, and Qu’ran

– A comparison of the Church of Scientology with Islam on the basis of actions, commandments, and prejudicial beliefs.

– A list of common logical fallacies that you’ll encounter in the theism/atheism discussion.

– A list of the common arguments for the existence of a deity.

Now, for the rebuttal. Because a lot of the original was in bold, I’ll italicize the original. I’ll do my usual think of indicating my comments with a hyphen. I had found the article in a document found in the facebook group “Quran & Hadith is man made and I completely reject it group!” and you can read the original document here.

Does God Exist? Proof of the Existence of God

Believe in God is the most important thing in faith. If someone does not believe that God exists then he is in deep astray.

– No, belief in a god isn’t the most important thing in faith. There are a few religions that haven’t held a belief in gods, but held belief in other supernatural entities. They would say that they have faith in their supernatural entities, be they fairies, spirits, or any other type of character.

– And most who believe that (if somebody does not believe that a god exists then his is in deep astray) tend to believe it because a book which they don’t question, says so.

Does God exist? We have never seen God. We have never talked with God. That is why the Atheists believe God does not exist. It is just a fantasy or a made up thing!

– Not the only reason. I’ve never seen radioactive nuclear materials. I’ve gone over papers and books on the subject of the qualities of nuclear materials. I’ve seen people develop technology which depends on radioactive substances.

– I’ve never spoken with Matt Dillahunty, the host of The Atheist Experience. While I can suspect his name, I’ve read things by him which can be verified to have been written by him. I’ve seen footage of him, either as a character or as himself.

– The reason I don’t believe in a god, is because there isn’t any evidence for one. I don’t care which one you want to bring up. There isn’t any evidence. There are arguments, and that’s it. There is the arguments from ignorance, such as “We don’t know how that happened, so god did it.” If you wish to use arguments, then you can’t get any closer to which one, be it monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, or any other type of theism, is accurate.

– Just a notification for “The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist,” I’ll be numbering some parts, and referencing them in the rebuttal.

The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist

There is one story of a Scholar and an Atheist. Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists then where is God?”

Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.

The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.

“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,” said the scholar.

1.) The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”

The villagers were laughing out loud.

2.) After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?

– 2.) is essentially the Argument from Design. The reason that we don’t believe that a boat can’t exist without a creator, be it human, or even a type of animal that decides to make a very primitive boat, is because there are no instances of it happening without somebody or something to make one. Given that, the questions in 1.), despite the issues with speech (the manner in which the questions were asked doesn’t strike me as being something that somebody who is fluent in English would say), are valid.

– Regarding “the earth, sky, and its contents” existing without a creator, we can see very clearly by looking around the universe through telescopes that there are stars in various stages of development (I’ll try to find a link to a site which discusses that). We can see that planets undergo similar steps in formation, and are influenced by such things as their proximity to stars, the materials which they are composed of, and so forth. We can even see that we’re not the only planet with an atmosphere. Granted, somebody at this point will ask “How did they get here?” or ask what I’ve seen frequently by those who wish to have only the answer they want to have acknowledged “Who put them there? Who made them?” My specialty isn’t astronomy or cosmology, so I’ll try to look for a bit, find some good resources on the subject, and refer you to them in a later post.

Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.

3.) “Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.

The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.

“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”

4.) The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”

“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.

5.) “No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers.

The villagers said, “No!”

6.) “So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.

– What the “scholar” is overlooking at point 4.) is that pain is measurable. If he were to slap the atheist in an MRI, we would be able to see the brain respond to the stimulus of pain.While the degree of response is subjective to what the individual has experienced and their pain threshold, it can be detected through an objective means of observation, which is more than what can be said for a god.

– 6.) depends on what is believed to have been done by the god in question. Of course, science depends on one thing. Methodological Naturalism. While a scientist may hold a believe in a deity, the scientist would be unable to use that as part of the explanation for a phenomena or observation, such as the existence and diversity of life. While the explanations to some are still undergoing development, such as the Theory of Abiogenesis and the Big Bang Theory, they have managed to get to the point where they are now without depending on a god as part of the explanation, and continue to progress without one taking part in the explanation.

– 3.) is an argument I can’t say I’ve made, or heard other atheists make. I hesitate to call it a strawman argument because there are always those who make weak arguments such as those.

The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.

How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?

We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.

– We can measure wind though. We can measure the speed, where it is, the direction it is going in, and so forth. It is to the point that in areas where it can become cold, as in -20 centigrade, we can measure how quickly unprotected skin will succumb to frostbite with the wind as a factor, which is called “the windchill factor.”

– We can measure electricity, and we have sufficient understanding of how to produce it that we can contain it within only a few cm^2. Ever hear of a battery? A small means of transporting a few volts at a time, and can be recharged in most instances. And we can see electricity jump between two points without a wire. We call it lightning (you can get a good idea of how that happens here http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys03/alightnin/default.htm and feel free to cross reference it against other sites on the subject of lightning. If you see any issues with the link I’ve provided, feel free to point them out). The same thing happens when electricity jumps between two points without a wire, which is sometimes referred to as a Spark gap, in which gas frequently used as a conductor of electricity. Ask any electrician who works in industries that employ very high voltage such as smelting or refining plants “Can electricity jump between two points without a wire in between them? And if so, under what conditions.” I’ve done that once before, but it was a while back. I can recall the general answer, and I’d rather not give it and spoil the surprise.

How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?

– And how many of them are starting to be seen through more and more powerful, accurate, and reliable means of observation? We are able to see the Andromeda Galaxy through telescopes. A few thousand years ago, we didn’t have a clue that another galaxy existed.

How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.

– Without the electron microscope, we’ve been able to learn a lot about molecules, atoms, and make predictions about the nucleus. Mendeleev was able to produce a periodic table of elements, although incomplete, it was set up in such a way that anybody could make an inference as to the properties (including the atomic mass, which is the average based on the number of protons and neutrons) of undiscovered atoms at that time, back in the late 1800s. In fact, Gallium, found between Aluminum and Indium, was accurately predicted by means of inference. Even without the electron microscope, we were able to predict that on the basis of what we knew. While their observations weren’t as accurate due to the less developed methods of observation, they were accurate enough to learn about them.

How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?

– We can measure them. We can recreate them. We can manipulate them. We might not be able to see them, but because we know about them, and know how to use them, you are able to use them for your argument. If this was prior to the 1700s, you wouldn’t be able to use any of them for your argument.

Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.

Clearly, you’ve never gotten a shock from the buildup of static electricity when you touched a door knob or somebody else if you think we can’t feel electricity.

The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.

– And we’ve been able to develop technology to do all of that. Infrared cameras, cameras that amplify light such as night vision goggles, and cameras that can show the thermal signatures of the environment around you, all for things that we can’t see. We’ve been able to record sounds, such as the sound waves used by bats and dolphins for echolocation, that we can’t otherwise sense too. Our ability to sense the world isn’t limited to our natural senses. We can, and have, improved on them. Even in the simplest way possible. Glasses and Hearing aids.

If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!

– I’m curious. If you wish to assert that there was a creator, why does it need to be a god? For example, why couldn’t it be a spirit such as O-ma-ma-ma? Why couldn’t it be universe creating pixies? Why couldn’t it be one of the thousands of different types of entities which human beings have imagined, as opposed to the one in particular which people have imagined, and you believe in?

The Universe, Who is its Creator?

It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!

-“It is hard to proof that god exists.” Prove that god exists? I hate to say it, but if your unable to properly communicate, I question the writer’s ability to present a valid argument for the existence of a deity.

– Because we have no instances of them creating themselves or coming to exist in some other manner. We can also track them to the company that made them, the factory in which the parts were assembled, and if you wanted to take the time to do so, all the way back to where the resources employed were extracted.

If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.

– Not valid. I say that because that “Creator” must have come to exist. If you say that a “creator” didn’t need to begin to exist to be here, then you have a case of special pleading. If you wish to avoid it, say that the universe didn’t need to have a beginning to come here. Of course though, we do know that the universe as we know it did begin to exist at some point, so you’ll have difficulty getting that to work.

The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.

– as of Friday, June 24, 7:00 pm CST, it wasn’t even 7 billion people. http://www.worldometers.info/population/ It still had about 27 million to go to reach seven billion.

– The circumference of earth might sound small, but keep in mind, the land surface area is about 57,510,000 square miles. I prefer to use kilometers, and the total number of square kilometers is about 148, 940, 000 km^2. Lets just say that there are eight billion people on Earth, living on ever square kilometer of land. That means about 55 people per square kilometer. All of this may sound like a lot, but it really isn’t. As of 2005, Japan had an average population density of just over 300 people per square kilometer. Using 300 as the population density, which would require overlooking the problems with how easily disease can spread, the requirement for agriculture, shelter, and the methods of transporting water, human beings could live on 23,333,333.33 km^2. Not relevant to the discussion, but something interesting to look at.

– Perhaps the person who wrote this isn’t that fluent in English. I’ve seen a lot of glaring grammatical errors, along with a sloppy choice of words, and I’m not trained to spot them. “whose length is 100,00 light years away.” No, the Milky Way galaxy is about 100,00 light years across. Given that Earth, and the star it orbits, are part of that galaxy, I fail to see why it would be “100,00 light years away.”

Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away!

– I get the notion that they made the same mistake in regards to away/across. So I double checked. And they were wrong about the dimensions. The OBSERVED universe is roughly 14 billion parasecs in any direction (parasec equals 3.26 light years) you can see that just for the radius, they had undershot it.

– I will also note, I’ll double check for the size. Cross referencing and looking at the basis for the total does take a bit of work. It’s not like pulling something out of your ass.

Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.

Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!

– I’m not even going to bother wasting my time with double checking this part. Given their track record, I’m not inclined to regard it as accurate.

That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.

– Oh, so many freaking problems. Why is it Allah and not other gods such as Marduk, Gaia, or something which shares many of the traits we associate with deities but are not, such as spirits? Is it because you believe in him? Is it because the “holy” Quran says so? Wouldn’t we be able to find other “holy” books that say the same about their god, goddess, or gods? I could probably keep going with this point, but I’d be wasting my time. Simply put, the idea of “There is a deity,” does not lead to “It is allah.” For the sake of argument, if there is evidence for a deity, in what way does asserting who it is and the qualities of that deity improve our understanding and knowledge of that entity?

In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:

“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!” [Quran 25:61]

– Oh my. Now we can compare this to just about every other religious text and see the same type of thing. Your “holy” book isn’t unique regarding the creation of the universe. I’ve yet to run across one which did not state that their god, goddess, gods, spirit, or other supernatural entities, did not play a role in the creation of the universe. Quit acting like it is the only one that could be used to reach that conclusion.

Is there a Controller of the Universe?

There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen. Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.

– They’ve overlooked why the Earth, Sun, and moon have not collided. Once something is in a stable orbit, it is unlikely to collide with the object it orbits for a very long period of time, and that is only if it is moving towards the astronautical body it orbits.

– Not only stars, but galaxies, have collided. You can see galaxies in the process colliding here, and the product of stars colliding here.

– Because some people are doubtlessly impressed with the idea of a god putting the celestial bodies into an orbit, I assure you, a god isn’t required. I’ll take a bit of time to find a reliable and accurate source on how orbits form, and when I find it, I’ll provide you with a link to it here.

“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge” [Quran 10:5]

“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit” [Quran:40]

People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!

insha’allah for those of us such as myself who are unfamiliar with the phrase.

– I”ll rewrite it to be a little closer to the vernacular I’m familiar with. “People who think a lot about the universe, god willing, will believe that there is a god!” Funny how it is that several of the biggest names in cosmology, astrophysics, astronomy, and other fields that deal with the universe, are atheists, such as Stephan Hawking, Michio Kaku, not to mention, less than ten percent of physicists and astronomers believe in a personal god. So either god, if one exists, isn’t willing, or those who do the work and think about the universe as much as anybody possibly can, just do not regard the belief as justified.

– In regards to the statistic, it is not my intention to state that correlation indicates causality. I’m merely pointing out that a majority of the participants in the study, and that given the fact that the participants deal with the study of the universe, that the statement provided by the source is poorly supported.

“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” [Quran 13:2]

“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire” [Quran 3:191]

Who is the Creator of People and Plants?

To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?

– Why does everything require a creator? I seem to recall having addressed that one.

“Have ye seen that which ye emit?

Do ye create it or are We the creator?” [Quran 56:58-59]

“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?

Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?” [Quran 56:63-64]

“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?” [Quran 56:72]

Can Men Create a Fly?

In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:

“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!” [Quran 22:73]

There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator.


Funny enough, even if one acknowledges each of these statements regarding “creation” by the original presenter as valid, one quote and one question can destroy each these.

– “There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” – Isaac Asimov

– Can anybody provide one instance in which a supernatural explanation for a phenomena has replaced an explanation which has been reached by using methodological naturalism?

Sources & References



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